Dialogue with Chris about Veganism
Stephen: Chris, if you cite the original diet of fruits, grains and nuts as being God's will for us, then what do you do with the diet he gave Noah and his descendants? Also how do you handle Jesus eating fish? Perhaps you are confusing what a glorified body needs and what a fallen body needs?
Chris:† Stephen I thank you for bringing those things up. If it sounds like i am confused I'm not. I will answer your questions the best i can though so that you can understand what i know.
1) The reason Noah was given "Clean Meat" to eat was, there were no plants of any kind to eat, so it was a matter of survival.
2) The fact that Jesus ate fish is not clearly stated in the Bible, it says that he asked for fish, but it doesnt say he ate it. †When he fed the 2 large groups of people there was fish AND bread. So again it doesnt say he ate the fish. It can be implied that he did, but it not concrete. Also clean meats were allowed. So it was not sinful to eat the meat. Also the meats were not injected with hormones and have a million and a half diseases in them.
If you read the SoP (Spirit of Prophecy) Sister White says there will come a day that dairy and meat will be too dangerous to eat. I believe we are in that day, i want to make myself clear that the fact we are in that day is my opinion, but the evidence is around us.
3) about the difference between the needs of the glorified body and the sinful, the needs are not different. The problem is they have altered food so the fruits, nuts, and grains are not what they use to be. There are literally hundreds of fruits and stuff we no longer have because they were destroyed in the flood.
I did make one mistake, i said the Bible isnít clear that Jesus did or did not eat Fish, but there is one scripture that came to mind. The scripture says that the Son of Man came eating and drinking. He ate and drank (grape juice not alcohol) as the people did because it was part of his mission to identify with the people.
On the other hand every story in the Bible speaks of the vegan diet. During the Exodus they were made vegan, Daniel was vegan, John the Baptist was Vegan. Jesus would be too if he came today, he set those up as examples of his end day people and Jesus could not break that.
Right now Jesus is in heaven and he has vowed to not partake of the vine (grapes) until his people are reunited with him.
Stephen: Chris, so you are saying once the crops came in, there was no more need for a meat based diet for Noah and his family so they should have become vegan? If that is the case then Leviticus 11 makes no sense.
Also your statements about Jesus not eating fish are facile and self-serving. You cannot change to be like Jesus, so instead you try to make Him conform to what you feel is proper.
I appreciate your honesty in quoting Ellen White for there is no biblical basis for your position. By the way, in case you haven't noticed, ALL food is now tainted. The air, the soil and the ground water is all poisoned. I recently read the toxiclogy reports on dozens of test wells throughout Eastern Washington. They all had trace amounts of dozens of chemical and mineral poisons. I also reviewed the general envrionmental report and discovered that millions of tons of pollutants enter the air, water and soil each year. If that is a justification for not eating meat, then it is also a justification for not eating anything grown naturally or drinking any water from a groundwater source.
In regards to the needs of the glorified body versus the sinful body, you are talking through your hat. You have can have no idea what the difference might be therefore your assertion that you do shows how desperate you are to find a basis for your belief outside of Ellen White, even if it is only your personal opinion.
Your claim that Jesus drank only grape juice is also ludicrous. Otherwise it makes no sense for anyone to assert that He was a drunkard. Luke 7:34 Else He would have replied, "Oh, I only drink grape juice, didn't you know?" He likely drank kosher wine which has a history all the way back to the time of the Commandments and is a part of the weekly Sabbath ritual.
Your assertion that Jesus would be vegan if he came today is also ludicrous. You have no idea what Jesus would do if He came today instead of two thousand years ago. Just like Jesus said of the Pharisees of old, you preach your opinion, the words of a man as though they were the words of God in order to lay burdens on others. You try to make the kingdom of God all about food and drink. It is not. Romans 14:17
If you want to be a vegan, do so, but don't make up all this stuff about it being what God wants everyone to do. By doing so, you are implying that you are more righteous than others over food and drink, and that is not biblical.
Chris: As far as Jesus eating meat and fish. It was the present day truth that it was fine. Therefore he ate clean meat. Also the kosher wine as you say it is still fermented. The Scriptures say that Jesus would not see corruption, this directly relates to the grave and him not rotten, but if he drank alcohol than you might as well throw the Bible out the door.
Jesus, Holy Spirit, and God the Father act in one accord, what one does or says is true for all. Therefore the Holy Spirit that inspired the entire Scriptures would be in perfect alignment with Jesus. So when the writer (i forget who it was), wrote to his son and told him not to drink the drink when it had changed color or had the bite of an asp (i believe it was asp, but it was a snake anyhow), he should not partake of it. The writer was inspired by the Holy Spirit (or it would not be in the Bible), this means that Jesus could not do anything to the contrary. Which means alcohol was not put in Jesus. Wine comes from grapes and grape juice comes from grapes, new wine is grape juice, and old wine was alcohol. Therefore we can know that Jesus did not drink strong drink as some writers called wine.
Also wine is used to speak about the sins of Babylon. Remember Revelation says that the Harlot makes all the nations drink of her wine. So wine is not a good thing.
As for Jesus not eating fish, i did correct myself in a later statement. There was on clear scripture that said he did or didnít, is what i had said. Then I said that i had made a mistake and that there was one "Son of man came eating and drinking" this means that he did so because he was coming to the people where they were. Not because he wanted them to stay that way. The Bible is clear that Eden was vegan diet, during the Exodus God made his people vegan (Read the entire journey of the Exodus and you will see the plan of our life, from us coming out of Babylon (Egypt) to us going home (Canaan)), John the Baptist was vegan. Also the Bible states that the last will be the same as Eden so then we can see the last will be the same as before (vegan). There will be no death or sorrow in heaven so we know there will be no meat in Heaven, and sister White even said there will be a time when all food will be dangerous other than vegan diet (I do agree even vegan diet is poisoned but it less poisoned than meat and Dairy). So the first was Vegan, the last Vegan and many typological events in between that show that vegan is what God wants for his people.
Now as far as Noah and them and people after, it was allowed because at first it was survival, and 2nd as i said before there were many many types of fruits and trees missing from the original world (pre-flood) so it was as you said easier to get many nutrients that way. It was allowed but does not mean we should. Solomon was allowed like 100 wives, but we should not do it because it against the law of God. God allowed things, doesnít meant that was his plan for us. Also let me say again it is up to you what you do with your body, i'm just sharing the knowledge i have with you.
Also please take a look at the video. Iím not the only one saying it is part of the Bible. Also i'm not saying it a salvation issue, but it will make your mind clearer and body healthier. Our Bodies are the temple of God and we should treat them as such.†
Stephen:† Chris how ridiculous that you would throw the Bible out over kosher wine. You interpret Jesus not seeing corruption as abstaining from wine. Most interpret it as abstaining from sin. Of course you are free to have your opinion but don't expect others to swallow that perspective. By the way, the reason I specified kosher wine is because the Jews themselves distinguished between the kosher process of winemaking from the fermentation present when making leavened bread. Of course how fortunate God is to have us who 2000 years later come along and say for a certainty that Jesus only drank grape juice when such an idea never occurred to the early church. It is only a modern definition that identifies wine with sin as you apparently do.
The Greek for fermented wine is οινος. The Greek for new wine is either οινος νεος or γλευκος. It was well understood that new wine could also make you drunk which is why the apostles were accused of being drunk after supposedly consuming it on Pentecost (Acts 2:13, γλευκους) You may choose to interpret these passages differently but bear in mind that interpreting them as non-alcoholic ignores the Greek in both substance and syntax.
Please understand, I do not assail what you have said because I have any sort of desire to justify personal wine consumption. I do not care much for the taste of wine, and grape juice causes dangerous blood sugar spikes for those who drink it. However, I do care a great deal when someone makes absurd claims that are not supported by the biblical text in order to advance an agenda that is modern in its derivation and irrelevant to salvation.
Now, on another note, your ridiculous claims about veganism. Yes the Edenic diet is clear. However, if you think that the Edenic diet is appropriate you should also think that Edenic nakedness is also. The same logic applies. The bottom line is that you cannot recover Eden by eating yourself there. Eden is only recovered through Christ and His return as is laid out in the final chapters of Revelation. It is also abundantly clear that as has been previously mentioned, when God established the Noahic Covenant, He placed meat in the diet. This practice continued throughout the Abrahamic Covenant as evidenced by Leviticus 11 and the practice of eating the sacrificial animals. Apart from the reference we previously discussed to Christ eating fish, we can probably safely assume Christ ate red meat as well because He participated in Passover where the eating of the Paschal lamb was required.
Second, while the Bible says that manna was provided in the wilderness, it does not say that is the only thing the people ate during their sojourn. To interpret that as a justification for veganism is to impose a modern bias on the text. However, since you seem to habitually do this, I am not surprised. Again since Passover was celebrated during the sojourn, there is little doubt that they ate red meat.
I do agree that it appears there will be no meat eating in heaven. However, this is not heaven and no amount of veganism will make it heaven.
I realize you are not the only one disseminating this propaganda. Numbers of advocates do not make it right. I also realize your only purpose is to advance your own righteousness and make others feel guilty, otherwise, if you truly felt it was a personal matter, you would keep quiet about it. Your ridiculous burdens drive people away from Christ because they make Christianity all a matter of food and drink, which it is not, instead of about Jesus and His love and righteousness. For that I can only label you a Pharisee, caught up in man-made legalism.
This Article is a Service of Still Waters Ministry